Curious about the rise of low dose cannabis drinks and why younger generations are swapping cocktails for cannabis? In part 2 of our series on alcohol & cannabis, we explore how shifting habits and innovative products are changing how we relax and socialize. You’ll hear personal stories from women who enjoy both cannabis and alcohol, and insights on why younger generations are rethinking drinking.
Featuring Christine Apple, Vivien Azer and Seng Richardson.
If you enjoyed this episode, we recommend Episode 272. Saloons & Suffragettes: The Rise and Fall of Alcohol Prohibition, Part 1
Featuring Marni Unger, Nicole Brown, Jane West
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Show Notes:
Throw a weed friendly dinner party with tips from Ellen and Sophia is Voracious
Listen to The 1st Time I Bought Legal Weed series
Read about the business of cannabis beverages at Delta Dispatch by Ian Dominguez
As I’ve been working on our alcohol and cannabis series, I have learned so much. Did you know that Dry January started with one woman in the UK giving up alcohol so she could train for a half marathon? That was back in 2013. Fast forward to today and last year in the U. S., 25 percent of adults gave it a try.
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Christine Apple: I drink less now than I’ve ever Consumed alcohol in my life. And I’m 50 years old. My body’s going through menopause. I don’t process alcohol the same way. It makes me feel bad. I don’t [00:02:00] sleep well. And I find cannabis is the exact opposite of that.
Ellen Scanlon (2): Welcome to how to do the pot and award winning podcast, helping you feel confident about cannabis.
I’m Scanlon.
You just heard from Christine Apple, the Oregon based founder of Grown, a cannabis edibles company. This is part two of our three part series on alcohol and cannabis. In part one, we explored how alcohol prohibition reshaped drinking habits in the U. S., and what those lessons might mean for cannabis today.
It’s still dry January and whether you’re participating or you know someone who is, it’s clear that the trend of drinking less is growing. Alcohol still holds an important [00:03:00] place in our culture and yet more people are quitting. Questioning alcohol’s health effects, younger people are not drinking as much.
And the rise of non alcoholic alternatives is creating new options for people who choose not to drink. For cannabis, socializing has often been a little trickier. Many people like to consume on their own to relax, sleep better, or even enhance exercise, which we talked about in our weed and workout series.
Yet low dose cannabis, especially the rise of THC drinks, is starting to change how weed fits into social settings. These weed drinks offer a similar ritual as alcohol. Have you tried one yet? They are great. In today’s episode, you’ll hear from women who share how they balance alcohol and cannabis to fit their lifestyles.
Plus we’ll hear from an expert analyst who tracks trends in [00:04:00] alcohol and cannabis to give us insight into where the cannabis industry might be headed. Have you signed up for my Substack newsletter yet? I share podcast highlights, inspiring stories, and some of my personal recommendations, like the podcasts, books, or events that I’m excited about.
Last week in the newsletter, I shared my favorite protein powered lunch, a tuna sandwich inspired by the best one I’ve ever eaten from the restaurant Giusta in LA. I’ll add a link in the show notes so you can get my recipe. If you’re already one of our 10, 000 plus newsletter subscribers, thank you. Your free access stays the same.
And now through Substack, you can upgrade to a paid subscription to support our work directly. Subscribe today at Substack or Do the pot. com and get some fresh ideas in your inbox. Thank [00:05:00] you for your support.
Oregon based Christine Apple, who you heard from at the beginning of the show, grew up thinking that alcohol was the only option for relaxing and socializing.
Christine Apple: I grew up in Texas. Alcohol was a big deal, right? I mean, that was really the only thing there wasn’t back in in the 80s and 90s. There weren’t alternatives like there are now.
When I was 13, 14, 15, we were drinking vodka and orange juice concentrate in the bathroom of our houses, experimenting out of our parents liquor cabinet. So alcohol has been a part of my life. A really long time that was culturally accepted there. I mean, where I, when I was a young girl, it was open container and drinking in the car was still legal in Texas.
So it was a different world than it is now. [00:06:00]
Ellen Scanlon (2): Over the years, Christine has changed her relationship with alcohol.
Christine Apple: I drink less now than I’ve ever. Consumed alcohol in my life and really now I find it’s for a few reasons. I’m 50 years old. My body’s going through menopause. I don’t process alcohol the same way.
It makes me feel bad. I don’t sleep well and I find cannabis is the exact opposite of that. It makes me feel better. It makes me sleep better. It makes my brain function better. My body, you know, all the things that I want it to do. Alcohol is the antithesis of that.
Ellen Scanlon (2): Christine has not given up alcohol and doesn’t plan to.
Christine Apple: That doesn’t mean that I don’t still enjoy it when I’m, when I’m out with girlfriends. I’m not anti all alcohol, but I don’t consume it at home. I only try to save it for special occasions. Cannabis hasn’t replaced alcohol for me. In social engagements, I still find cannabis to be a more personal experience for me and more intimate versus [00:07:00] alcohol is much more socially externally facing use.
I tend to not mix them together. And so it’s the meditation, it’s the introspective, it’s the rest, it’s the sleep, it’s the regenerative aspects of cannabis that I find are really therapeutic to me. If I was hanging out with five girlfriends and I wanted to really engage and laugh and have a great time, that’s not the experience.
And so trying to mix those together when I’ve, when I’ve done it wasn’t the best for me because they conflict.
Ellen Scanlon (2): Pennsylvania based Vivian Azar has two decades of experience researching the alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis industries for global banks. She was the first research analyst on Wall Street to take cannabis seriously and has advised some of the world’s top investors.
I started my career on Wall Street and really appreciate her perspective. One thing that stands out to Vivian is that alcohol consumers have gotten more flexible. They’re [00:08:00] open to trying new things, including taking breaks from drinking.
Vivien Azer: It’s not just about abstinence, but it’s about taking breaks, right?
Dry January was not a thing when I was in college, or sober October, not a thing. But, you know, there’s been some really fascinating external research around what consumers do when they do decide to take a month off from, from alcohol consumption, and cannabis is right up there in terms of where that consumer looks for a substitute.
Ellen Scanlon (2): As more people turn to cannabis instead of alcohol, who is trying it and how do they compare to alcohol drinkers? Vivian looks at trends and shares how factors like gender and race are shaping this shift.
Vivien Azer: If I kind of look at trends in cannabis since 1969, I think it’s up, but it varies from year to year.
Men over index a little bit more than women, but that’s also true in alcohol. So I don’t think that’s [00:09:00] entirely surprising to see. There isn’t a huge racial divide in terms of reported cannabis use, with the exception of Asian consumers. But amongst white, black, and Hispanics, it’s pretty tightly clustered.
You don’t see that with alcohol. Alcohol prevalence is much higher with white consumers. So I think that’s like a really interesting difference between the two categories.
Ellen Scanlon (2): Alcohol is a giant industry, valued at more than 250 billion. I asked Vivian to give us some context. How big is the cannabis industry today?
Vivien Azer: It’s just north of 30 billion and that’s legal only sales, so adult use and, and medical. If I had to size the total cannabis market in the U. S. That’s much tougher, but I’d have to say it’s at least 50 billion. You know, you talk to operators and they’re like, man, the illicit market is still alive and well.
And as someone, you know, who has a residence in Manhattan, you know, New York is trying to clean up [00:10:00] our cannabis marketplace. But when cannabis legalization first took off, there dispensary on every block and they were doing good business.
Ellen Scanlon (2): In part one of this series last week, we learned about how the U. S.
came out of alcohol prohibition with a regulatory framework for how to do business and protect consumer safety. Vivian tells us what’s different about how cannabis is becoming legal.
Vivien Azer: The repeal of alcohol prohibition created a national framework first and then there were state level frameworks that sat underneath it.
We’re doing the opposite with cannabis, where we’re creating state level frameworks first and then hopefully, ultimately, there’s a new, more accommodative federal framework that will come around over time.
Ellen Scanlon (2): I’ve had a pretty quiet start to the year, so it’s been nice to think back to this fall when I went to my first concert in a long time, Sophie [00:11:00] Tucker. It was such a fun dance party. When was the last time you let go and felt that kind of energy? There’s a reason people say, if only I could bottle this feeling.
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Happy is giving How to Do the Pot listeners 20 percent off. Head to happyhourdrink. com and use the code DANCE. That’s D A N C E at checkout. And Happy has an I at the end. Try Happy Dance and no matter where you [00:12:00] are, let the music move you.
The cannabis industry has come a long way since California legalized medical use back in 1996. That historic change was driven by the AIDS crisis in San Francisco. I talked more about this emotional moment in our three part Pride series, and I’ll add a link to the show notes if you haven’t listened yet.
So medical cannabis paved the way for the progress we have today. 38 states now allow medical use and 24 states have legalized adult recreational use. Yet it’s still a patchwork of laws. For the largest cannabis companies who operate in multiple states, it has not been easy to navigate federal regulations.
To get funding and build their businesses, they had to go to Canada, where cannabis is [00:13:00] federally legal.
Vivien Azer: In order to become a public company, they couldn’t raise money and go public on the New York Stock Exchange or the NASDAQ marketplace because the exchanges weren’t comfortable with that. So it’s funny, the way that it works is the U.
Ellen Scanlon (2): As large and small cannabis brands work to build customer loyalty and stand out in this growing market, they’re borrowing strategies from other industries.
Vivian explains how cannabis could develop categories like good, better, best, similar to what we see in alcohol and other consumer goods.
Vivien Azer: There are a lot of categories in consumer packaged goods where there’s a clear hierarchy and generally. People think about it as good, better, best. You can see that certainly in alcohol, across all of alcohol.
In [00:14:00] beer, there’s a good, better, best. In seltzers, alcoholic seltzers, there’s a lot more clustering from a price points perspective, right? Um, because that’s a new category. Over time, would you anticipate that there’s a more formal price pack architecture that falls into place? Probably. But I think in order to do that, you might need a national framework, because one of the things that allows companies in consumer packaged goods to differentiate price point, but also meet their internal aspirations around profitability, is that there’s a lot of transparency around what the underlying cost of goods sold is.
But right now, there’s just It’s such a high degree of variability in terms of the cost of the inputs that the cannabis category can’t totally formalize the way we would have expected it.
Ellen Scanlon (2): Running a cannabis business is tough right now, and profitability is just one of the many challenges. What is helping the industry stay [00:15:00] optimistic?
Gen Z. And trends showing younger consumers are way less interested in alcohol than the generations before them. Vivian explains more.
Vivien Azer: I think what it speaks to more broadly is a health and wellness movement that has been long apparent in government data. It’s only just going to become, I think, more and more powerful in driving overall market trends.
We like to think about things as a consumer waterfall. So 10 years ago, if you saw that 18 to 25 year olds were drinking less than the same 18 to 25 year olds 10 years prior to that, You would say to yourself, Hey, I think we’re going to have a problem here because that 18 to 25 year old cohort, they’re not going to change once they turn 26.
And so 10 years ago, that was one of the first things I identified that really reinforced my conviction around making a big call on Wall Street for cannabis.
Ellen Scanlon (2): Christine Apple sees the trend with her 20 year old [00:16:00] daughter.
Christine Apple: I see my daughter’s who’s now 20. Her generation, they don’t drink. They do consume cannabis.
They experiment with other things. They’re really not interested in alcohol.
Ellen Scanlon (2): Vivian thinks that social media has played a role in younger people drinking less.
Vivien Azer: I think we would be remiss if we didn’t acknowledge the role that social media has probably played in driving consumers away from, from alcohol or certainly excessive alcohol consumption.
You know, there were no iPhones when, when we were in college. And so Bad behavior went unchecked and there weren’t any certainly long running repercussions, but you know, if I was a 20 year old now, I would be very cognizant about what was happening around me and who had a video camera out because eventually there’s a future employer that might be very interested in seeing how you were behaving when you were in your 20s and alcohol can really impair your judgment.
Ellen Scanlon (2): [00:17:00] Canada based Sang Robertson, the Director of Cannabis Research and Development at the Boston Beer Company, shares why cannabis drinks feel like a natural fit for her.
Seng Robertson: Yeah, it’s always been low and slow and not drinking to get drunk, but really just drinking to socialize. That’s how I’ve always been and moving to cannabis beverage, it’s a very natural thing for me.
So, to be able to imbibe in beverages that, you know, you can still function. And really, that’s important to me. I can still hold a conversation. I can still enjoy my friends and family and not over consume.
Ellen Scanlon (2): In part three of the series next week, you’ll hear from more women about their shift from alcohol to cannabis.
For some, cannabis is a social choice. For others, it’s more personal. I asked Tseng what works best for her.
Seng Robertson: I can function with a low dose beverage. So for me, it could be the end of the day, my last [00:18:00] meeting, I like a nice cold beverage. That could be it, or it could be when I’m socializing. Because unfortunately, weed beverages aren’t really available in a restaurant or a bar, so A lot of times it’s having maybe a cannabis beverage before I go out and really I’ve been trying to bring them also to social occasions like my book club.
The first time I brought weed beverages to my book club, it was surprising that people did not know they existed or even where to purchase it. And it’s such a natural thing, you know, we normally have wine at our book club, but there’s no reason why we can’t have a weed beverage. And I think, you know, we can have both at book club.
Ellen Scanlon (2): If you’re thinking of bringing THC drinks to your book club or any social event, Tseng shares her tips.
Seng Robertson: How do we tell people that it exists if it’s not word of mouth? We all have to remember back when we first had [00:19:00] alcohol, we had to figure out how did it make us feel? How much did we drink before we?
felt like it was too much. It’s a lot of test and error. The first time we had alcohol, I think it was that nervousness. The first time you have a cannabis beverage, broad cannabis beverages to different occasions. And I noticed that people either take little sips or they’ll take it home and enjoy for the first time in private.
But eventually people do, I am noticing have it more in social gatherings. Barbecues, or when people come over, we always have cannabis beverages at our house. People will sometimes reach for a cannabis beverage over an alcohol beverage, so I do find that people are becoming more accepting when they know it exists.
Ellen Scanlon (2): Just as low dose alcohol was the first to be legalized after Prohibition, low dose cannabis, especially in THC drinks derived from hemp, is leading the way for a whole new generation of consumers. [00:20:00] Next week in part three of this series, we’ll explore why some cannabis products are only available in dispensaries while others can be purchased in liquor stores or even bars and restaurants.
We’ll uncover how the history of white claw might shape the cannabis industry and hear from women embracing modern ways to enjoy both cannabis and alcohol. A special thanks to Leanne McLaren, a longtime listener from Vancouver, who I talked to as part of How to Do the Pot’s recent focus group. If you’re open to talking to me for about 15 minutes, please reach out to hi at do the pot.
com or DM at do the pot. I also want to send extra love to all our LA based listeners. My son goes to a Quaker school and they have a beautiful tradition of holding others in the light. It’s a Quaker expression that’s used when people are [00:21:00] facing distress or difficulties. It’s meant to lift them up to goodness and love and wishes upon them, health, healing, and peace.
So LA and Malibu we are holding you in the light
for lots more information and past episodes, visit, do the pot. com. And that’s also where you can sign up for our newsletter. If you like how to do the pot, Please rate and review us on Apple podcasts. It really helps more people find the show. Thank you to our producers, Maddy Fair and Nick Patry. I’m Ellen Scanlon and stay tuned for more of how to do the pot.
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