Bonus Episode: Can You Be Sober and Still Choose Cannabis? Ellen’s Conversation on Recovery Rocks Podcast

Welcome to How to Do the Pot, a podcast helping you feel confident about cannabis. I’m your host, Ellen Scanlon. 

Today’s show is a special bonus episode. Recently, I was a guest on the Signal Award-winning podcast Recovery Rocks, hosted by recovery advocates Tawny Lara and Lisa Smith. 

I was really honored to be a guest on the show. Tawny reached out to me because How to Do the Pot helped her navigate bringing cannabis into her life post-recovery, when she was exploring it as an alternative to prescription medications for anxiety. 

Tawny is a journalist and the author of book called Dry Humping: A Guide to Dating, Relating, and Hooking Up Without the Booze. She’s known as the Sober Sexpert. She writes a Substack newsletter called Beyond Liquid Courage, where she discusses publishing, entrepreneurship, cannabis, and the NA drink industry after 8+ of reporting on the sober curious and mindful drinking movements.

Lisa Smith is also a writer and the author of the award-winning memoir, Girl Walks Out of a Bar. The book recounts her descent into and recovery from “high-functioning” alcohol and cocaine addiction in big New York City law firms. Lisa’s story launched her into the movement to advance well-being in the legal profession.

Give Tawny & Lisa a couple of microphones, and you get Recovery Rocks: a fresh, thoughtful take on the issues impacting those who struggle and recover. 

In this episode, we take on a controversial topic: how cannabis can support addiction recovery – and Tawny shares her story of integrating low-dose cannabis into her life post-sobriety. We discuss the questions women in recovery are asking about weed, and the importance of finding cannabis-informed doctors and therapists.

Whether you or someone you love is in recovery, or you’re rethinking your relationship with alcohol or pharmaceuticals, I hope this conversation helps you feel more confident about finding what works best for you.

Thanks to Tawny & Lisa for having me!

SUBSTACK PROMO

Are you reading my Substack yet?

If you love listening to How to Do the Pot, I think you’ll love the newsletter too. It’s where I share podcast highlights, inspiring stories, exclusive brand discounts, and my favorite personal recs—all in one place, straight to your inbox.

Are you already a reader? You can upgrade to a paid subscription for just $6/month to directly support the show. It helps me keep this work going, and I’d be so grateful.

If you haven’t signed up yet, please check it out – I’d love to have you there! Thank you for supporting the show! 

MUSIC

 

[00:00:26] Hello everyone. Welcome to Recovery Rocks. It’s Tawny joined by my fabulous bestie Lisa Smith.

[00:00:36] Lisa Smith: It’s Lisa. What’s up? My love?

[00:00:38] Tawny Lara: How are you? I’m, I’m well. I’m hanging in. I’m

[00:00:41] Lisa Smith: hanging in. Yeah. How about you?

[00:00:44] Tawny Lara: You know, as good as, as good as we can while the world is falling apart around us, it’s, it’s all one foot

[00:00:49] Lisa Smith: in front of the other.

[00:00:49] Yeah. That’s all we can

[00:00:50] Tawny Lara: do. Yeah. Um, but I will say, I. I am in a good mood today because I’m fangirling over our guest, Ellen [00:01:00] Scanlon. She is like, I just, I’m gonna just say a little bit about what Ellen means to me and then I’ll read the, read her bio. So Ellen is the host of How To Do the Pot, which is a podcast about.

[00:01:13] Pot weed, cannabis. Um, and I found this podcast probably four or five years ago when I was a couple years sober from, from alcohol. And my anxiety got to a point of like, I. I needed something. I needed something else. And I did not want a Xanax subscription subscription. Um, it’s the same thing though. Let’s be real.

[00:01:40] I did not want a Xanax prescription, so I explored, I I had the issues for the subscription though. Let’s be real. Um, so I, I was googling like cannabis women, women in cannabis, like. There’s gotta be women talking about this. So I found how to do the pot. [00:02:00] Um, and it really helped me get through my, I would say like canna curious journey where I was like, am I comfortable using cannabis in sobriety?

[00:02:12] I. And now, you know, I’m very open about how cannabis is part of my daily life in recovery. And, um, so Ellen’s podcast has been a huge part of that. Um, and she’s just, she does so many wonderful things in the cannabis space. So I’m just gonna go ahead and introduce Ellen. Welcome to Recovery Rocks.

[00:02:30] Ellen Scanlon: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:31] It’s really great to be here.

[00:02:34] Tawny Lara: Of course. So tell us a little bit about how to do the pot and, and why you got. Why you started this podcast, especially like cannabis use for women. I know like that’s was important to me and clearly important to you. I’d love to hear the impetus behind that.

[00:02:51] Ellen Scanlon: Yes. Well, health issues really brought me to cannabis.

[00:02:55] Uh, I had a very bad bike accident in 2010 and a bunch [00:03:00] of injuries including breaking 16 of my teeth, and the recovery was so challenging. I’d never had any health issues before, and the side effects of medicine that I was taking, for me it was mostly a lot of Advil because I had so much pain and I. Kind of destroyed my stomach.

[00:03:18] All of these things that were completely unexpected. Um, and as I started to get better, I realized that, you know, I’d been listening to all of my doctors and doing exactly what they said, and I wasn’t getting better. And so for the first time, I started to think I needed to have a bigger role in my own recovery from these health issues.

[00:03:37] Pretty soon after that, I got married. I was trying to have a baby. I experienced almost four years of unexplained infertility, which is a super terrible diagnosis because it’s just how can it, how can this be unexplained? Hmm. It was not unexplained. In fact, it turns out I have endometriosis, which one in 10 women have, which I didn’t find out I had until I was in my late thirties.

[00:03:59] And [00:04:00] endometriosis is. A disease that I think is starting to get more funding. I talk about it all the time. It’s extremely painful. Monthly, it feels like you’re having, you’re going through labor, uh, is kind of the way that the pain works. And cannabis is an incredible treatment for endometriosis. So I started to learn all of these things.

[00:04:20] Cannabis became legal for adults, uh, in California in 2016. I live in San Francisco, so I was kind of poking around and just paying attention to what was happening and learning that cannabis has so many positive effects for women. Women have more autoimmune diseases than men. Women experience anxiety, depression, all of these things that cannabis really supports.

[00:04:42] And so I’ve been in the industry now for a while. It has been up and down, um, with kind of. The way that the industry is unfolding in mainstream society. We’re at a really interesting point right now, but I think the through line for me has been that women have been stigmatized [00:05:00] more for cannabis consumption than men, especially mothers, as a mother.

[00:05:04] I, I, I see that. I feel that for other people, and I, I don’t know, you know? It’s funny, my, my family is, I didn’t come from like a cool weed family at all, and they don’t think what I’m doing is that great, but I just feel so strongly that this information needs to get out, that it needs to come out in a way that feels trustworthy and smart and credible.

[00:05:26] I try to talk to the, the most expert people that I can and. What’s been really fun over the years of doing the podcast is it used to be that, you know, a small fraction of people would get back to me when I had questions. And over the past year I’ve talked with New York Times reporters, you know, physicians at Johns Hopkins.

[00:05:42] Like, it’s really changing and the people that understand cannabis and wanna help their patients with it are the doctors that you see. And so, um, I think that that’s what’s been gratifying. I mean, hearing stories like yours, honestly, it, it’s. [00:06:00] It makes me feel terrific, um, that this was a helpful resource for you, and that’s exactly what I want it to be.

[00:06:06] You know, something that makes you feel confident and then you can talk to other people and feel confident about it, and the slow process of changing people’s hearts and minds. Um, that’s the way it always happens.

[00:06:20] Tawny Lara: I, I remember when I first found your podcast, I texted Lisa. I was like, I found a podcast about like, weed for women and like, it, it was so validating to find that resource.

[00:06:32] Um, especially because you do, you have guests on that talk about science and research and I, I appreciate that. Um, especially like as a, as a person in recovery, you know, I was like, I had so many. Rightful apprehensions of like, how to introduce this plant back into my life. Like, and something that, like, that I keep thinking is [00:07:00] like, like how do I find a healthy relationship with a substance that I’ve abused in the past?

[00:07:06] You know, I, when I was 16, 17, 18, I was like smoking weed all day, every day. Self-medicating, horribly depressed. Um. I had no, I didn’t have the language. I didn’t know what I was going through, you know? And so I think after, after, now I’m in recovery for nine years, you know, and I haven’t had a drink in nine years.

[00:07:29] And I’ve done so much work to figure out why I was using weed the way that I did, why I was using alcohol the way that I did. And I don’t think I would have arrived at a place, uh, where I can have a healthy relationship with cannabis now without doing. All of that work before

[00:07:49] Lisa Smith: you did an incredible amount of work.

[00:07:51] I mean, I remember talking with Tawny about this when she was considering it and just being like, very, you were, you were, so [00:08:00] I’m going to a cannabis doctor. I’m talking to my therapist about this. I’m very, you know, it took a long time for you to.

[00:08:13] Cannabis is an appropriate medicine for you.

[00:08:17] Tawny Lara: Yeah. I even per my therapist who was thankfully cannabis informed. Um, she told me to write the word medicine on my package of gummies. ’cause I was like, I don’t know why I can’t just get it into my head that this is medicine and this helps my anxiety. Um, and she’s like, what if you write medicine on the la just on the packaging Genius.

[00:08:38] And. And I, it was such a game changer. It’s, it was so helpful for me, even though I wrote it, you know, like, and then even going to a cannabis doctor and getting a prescription and just like going through that experience, I, I needed that. I genuinely needed that to work [00:09:00] and I’m still working through a lot of my own de-stigmatization of this amazing plant that saves lives and helps people.

[00:09:08] Um, but there’s so much de-stigmatization that we’re all still dealing with. So I’m wondering, I’m wondering if you could also speak to a little bit of the cannabis history of like some of its racist origins and how, like why is it so stigmatized for, first of all? I know that’s a huge question, so, um, yeah.

[00:09:30] Anything that comes up with that.

[00:09:32] Ellen Scanlon: Well, I think what you’re, I mean, I’m, I’m so glad that you were able to find those resources and Dr. Chin, your doctor. I know. Well, yes, and I think she’s wonderful and she’s helping a lot of people, and I think that for you, obviously the stakes were very, very high because you knew what the consequences could be for you.

[00:09:50] I think that. For me, I, I, I feel like the stakes are very high as well, because the information that I’m providing to people, I want them to be able to [00:10:00] feel like they have what they need so that they can feel comfortable to move forward. And a lot of that comes from the stigma. They’re absolutely right.

[00:10:08] And I think that the stigma that is most common right now is probably rooted in the war on drugs, um, from the eighties and the nineties, and. The idea that, you know, you’re gonna fry your brain, I think is a, is a real thing for many people. Um, legalization has been very interesting. My dad’s a lawyer and I think I could not have gotten into the cannabis industry if it wasn’t legal in California.

[00:10:32] I’m not comfortable in illegal businesses. It’s still tricky because it’s federally illegal and so as legalization has been rolling out, I think people are really facing what. What they thought of this and, and it’s complicated because if, if what Nancy Reagan was saying about weed, if the fact that black and white people smoke weed at the same rates, but black people go to jail at four times the rate [00:11:00] of other, of, of white people, black and brown people like.

[00:11:03] What is actually going on here. And these things are not kind of, they don’t make sense. And so I think that the stigma is confusing for people at this point. That’s how I feel about it. Because there was a lot of fear. There was a lot of like, this is bad, I’m not gonna do it. Or I am doing something bad.

[00:11:19] And I know that. And now cannabis is legal for adults in 24 states for medical use in 38 states. It’s legal for the whole country of Canada. And so how are people grappling with what this means? And I think we’re at a really interesting moment. You know, you can go into grocery stores in a lot of states and buy low-dose weed drinks.

[00:11:41] You don’t have to smoke, you don’t have to wait two hours for the effects. You just, it looks like a regular drink. And a lot of people bought it during dry January and. You know, send me messages like, oh, this is, this is kind of nice. I like it. And, and so I truly think we’re at this moment where it’s just very confusing [00:12:00] for a lot of people and trying to provide real information, trying to provide, um, experts who can explain what’s happening is what I am trying to do.

[00:12:11] I feel like it’s something that you all are doing so, so well, and I just think that the stakes matter and. And when cannabis is sitting in front of you, I do not want people to be afraid of it. I think that there are ways that you can learn about it and try and low dose is the way that a lot of people are are coming in.

[00:12:34] And, and I think that’s a great option.

[00:12:38] Tawny Lara: And that’s, that’s exactly the advice that, that Dr. Chin gave me and I probably heard on, on your podcast, is like they’re saying. What is it like low and slow? Like just start with if, if you’re listening to this, this episode and you’re thinking, okay, I am kind of can of curious, how do I do this?

[00:12:55] Like, starting low meaning low dose, so [00:13:00] you don’t, you don’t get too high on accident. Um, and just going slow. You know, take, take a small amount, wait an hour, see how it feels. Um, and also, you know. Don’t go, don’t do this alone. I had a therapist. I found a cannabis doctor. I actually had to switch my primary care doctor because she was not cannabis inclusive.

[00:13:24] She act, my primary doctor actually gave me shit for using cannabis. She shamed me in her office. I told her. You know, you know, I’ve been struggling with anxiety. I’m already taking Lexapro, and I found that I needed something as needed. Um, I don’t feel comfortable with Xanax and so I’m trying this, I’m trying, you know, this low dose weed gummies to help me with anxiety.

[00:13:50] I. She just is like, well, you need to be really careful, you know, you’re an addict in recovery. This does concern me and I, I [00:14:00] get where she’s coming from. I, I understood the concern, but I think this is raising a larger question of how, how doctors are not cannabis informed. Um, so I’m wondering if you could explain from your, from your research what a cannabis informed doctor and therapist actually means.

[00:14:20] It doesn’t just mean they know weed exists. You know, what cannabis informed actually means. I.

[00:14:26] Ellen Scanlon: Well, I think it’s a, it’s such a great example that you give, because you came to her saying, I don’t want this prescription.

[00:14:33] Tawny Lara: Yeah.

[00:14:34] Ellen Scanlon: And I, I know that it could be harmful to me. I’m trying to find something that is less harmful and you know.

[00:14:42] I think the real problem is that medical schools don’t teach this. A lot of doctors don’t learn about it. They’re very busy. They’re trying to, you know, take care of their patients in the best way they can. So I don’t think that it’s necessarily something malicious or nefarious. The doctors who I have talked to who know a lot [00:15:00] about cannabis are doing it because their patients are coming to them and they want to help their patients.

[00:15:05] And so I think as doctors hear from patients that they’re. Consuming cannabis more. I think a lot of people are trying it for sleep. That seems to be, if anything, sleep is probably the gateway, uh, into cannabis for many people. So how would I say, you know, you’re asking for my advice about talking to your doctor.

[00:15:24] Um, I think that the doctors that I have spoken to really think that. Every doctor might not be for you. I mean, I think you made the right choice. I think that you bring it up in a responsible way. You see how the doctor, you know, answers your questions and you decide whether that doctor is for you. There are more doctors who understand cannabis.

[00:15:47] Maybe it’s gonna have to be a telemedicine doctor for right now, but that telemedicine doctor can probably recommend someone. Who is local over time. And so in the same way that if you’ve ever had a health issue and you’ve needed a [00:16:00] second opinion, sometimes you need a second opinion. And, and there is, I think that’s where, that would be the advice that I would give because, you know, you can try to educate your doctor.

[00:16:10] Maybe. And, um, but I just, that just doesn’t feel like a, a, a great, I mean, for, for example, so I have endometriosis. One in 10 women have it. I’ve gone to my OB and said, you know, do you have a pamphlet or something that you hand out? You know, when you’re teaching young girls you talk about getting a pap smear or getting something else for related to women’s health.

[00:16:30] And she was like, no, we don’t do anything like that. I’m like. Like 30 symptoms, you know, one in 10 women is a lot. Maybe a pamphlet would help. And I kind of left it at that, and then I found a new doctor.

[00:16:42] Tawny Lara: Yeah. That’s I, Lisa, do you have, do you have anything? I don’t wanna like dominate the conversation. No, go ahead.

[00:16:50] Go ahead. Because I

[00:16:51] Lisa Smith: haven’t, I haven’t done this, I haven’t gone through this. Yeah. So, yeah, no, go right ahead.

[00:16:56] Tawny Lara: Well, it’s, I relate to what you’re saying on a, [00:17:00] um. Even from like a, a sex educator perspective, just me being a sex writer and then hearing my O-B-G-Y-N give me like incorrect advice that I, and I’m like, do I correct them?

[00:17:14] I’m j like, I’m just a journalist. Like I didn’t go to med school. Who am I to correct this person? But it’s, I think it speaks to how quickly a lot of these things are changing and how the information age is impacting patient. Doctor relationships maybe, I don’t know.

[00:17:34] Ellen Scanlon: Well, I’ve talked to cannabis brands who are providing lots and lots of product to people, and when they get questions they say, oh, you should talk to your doctor, knowing kind of full well that their doctor probably doesn’t know as much as the person in the cannabis industry.

[00:17:51] And so I think that the. The, the thing that you can do to help is to keep asking the questions of your doctor, because I do think that [00:18:00] doctors want to help their patients, and the doctors that I’ve spoken to who have taken upon themselves to learn about cannabis have done it because enough patients have said, listen, I need help with this.

[00:18:10] I want help with this. I want this to be a responsible thing. I wanna feel better. I’ve tried other, other things. The side effects from other medicines are not working for me. And, and those are very legitimate, reasonable things, and I think doctors understand that.

[00:18:28] Tawny Lara: Yeah, that’s real. And then just the whole self-advocacy comes into place where it’s like, if you don’t feel comfortable with this doctor, the, the pain in the acid is finding a new one.

[00:18:39] And I, I, I did that, you know, and it was, it was difficult. It was annoying. But ultimately, I’m glad that I found a cannabis inclusive doctor, and I’m grateful that my therapist was already cannabis inclusive. She even, she suggested cannabis to me at, you know, at some point where she was like, I, you’re really struggling with your anxiety.

[00:18:59] [00:19:00] Like, have you, have you considered this? You know, so like, it is so important to have your medical team on board. With what you’re doing. Um, I think coming from a recovery perspective too, you know, where it’s like, I’m very grateful I’ve been with my therapist since I quit drinking. So she’s been with me through all of this over these nine years.

[00:19:23] And, um, so she, having someone like that that I can talk to and has seen my growth in my recovery, um, and knowing that I can talk to her about this. And even like, there’s times when I’m like. I’m really stressed out. I think I’m using too much. I think I’m taking too many gummies right now. And then like she and I talk about that, you know, and like I don’t beat myself up over it.

[00:19:47] I’m like, okay, let’s observe this behavior. I kind of treat it like a journalist, you know? I’m like, let’s observe. Let’s track some data. Let’s, let’s, let’s maybe talk to some sources and see what the [00:20:00] best, what the best next action is.

[00:20:02] Ellen Scanlon: I, we have a new series that, um, has just launched in the past few weeks, and it’s about alcohol and cannabis, and we go through the history of prohibition and then.

[00:20:13] Talk to different women who have been choosing cannabis over alcohol or figuring out how to kind of blend it in their life. And I was working on a script last night and a woman in the episode was saying, I’m trying to find the least amount of both of these substances so that I feel great. And I thought that was such an an, an insightful kind of comment.

[00:20:34] And you know, I have a small child. I am in my late forties. Like I, I just. Partying is kind of not on my radar right now and I wanna feel better. I wanna get a good night’s sleep, I wanna relax. And so part of what I love about cannabis is I can use a very, very small amount and I feel great. Like a 20 to one.

[00:20:56] Edible for me is a wonderful [00:21:00] amount, like a teeny little bit of THC. Just to activate the CBDI love CBD, I think that you do as well and. It’s a much more subtle cannabinoid than THC, so it’s not, um, you kind of have to really use a little bit more than you think, uh, to get it to work. But it has wonderful effects for me, and I think that that has been such a privilege for me to learn that I don’t have to get high.

[00:21:27] So many people who don’t wanna get high can still benefit from cannabis, and I think you’re a perfect example of that.

[00:21:35] Lisa Smith: I think it would be great. Oh, I was just gonna say, I think it would be great for, um, our audience, for you to sort of, um, talk about the distinction between C-B-D-T-H-C, the effects, because I think it can be really confusing for people out there just seeing all the different things.

[00:21:53] So, um. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit.

[00:21:57] Ellen Scanlon: Of course. The alphabet soup, as I call it, [00:22:00] THC, is the intoxicating part of the plant. So that is when you’re gonna feel the effects that most people kind of, uh, associate with feeling high. CB, D is. The non intoxicating part of the plant. So it has relaxing kinds of qualities.

[00:22:18] Um, a lot of people use CBD as a topical. It, it helps with inflammation, it helps with sleep, it helps with balancing your endocannabinoid system. And everyone has an endocannabinoid system. It’s like the nervous system or the cardiovascular system. The entire purpose of the endocannabinoid system is to balance all the other systems in your body.

[00:22:39] Um. I did a series this summer about we and workouts, and many of us have heard of endorphins, and you think, I’m gonna go for a run and get my endorphins, which is kind of a funny scientific sounding word. What’s actually happening is that your endocannabinoid system is being balanced, so the runner’s high is real.

[00:22:58] Your body is feeling [00:23:00] high in the same way that you might associate with cannabis because that is what a balanced endocannabinoid system can feel like. And so THC and CBD. Have, you know, they activate with the endocannabinoid system. And so at its simplest level, THC is intoxicating, can be intoxicating, and CBD is non intoxicating.

[00:23:22] Tawny Lara: Perfect. Super helpful. Like that, like when I was canna curious and I was like, where do I even start? How do I learn about all of this? Like, I learned all of that from your podcast. So, um, yeah. Thank you for that, that prompt, Lisa? Um. I, I liked how you were talk, I, I liked how you were talking about women wanting to use the least amount of something to feel a certain way.

[00:23:46] That’s really fascinating to me, especially ’cause Lisa and I are big advocates for harm reduction and like, I, I’m not anti-alcohol. I any means like, it’s not for me, it’s, but like, I don’t think everybody needs to stop [00:24:00] drinking, you know? Um, and so like, I like hearing stories like that where people. Taking what I would call a harm reduction approach.

[00:24:09] And, um, in, in my book, I, I actually have a section about how cannabis can be helpful for people, especially women in the bedroom, and especially people who’ve experienced any sort of sexual trauma. People who are struggling with PTSD. And I’ve speak to how I’ve spoken to how cannabis has helped me personally.

[00:24:30] PTSD. And uh, so I’m wondering, and I know like on your website you’ve done lots of episodes about sex and cannabis, so I was gonna see if you could give us a little, uh, A-T-L-D-R of all of your excellent work on that intersection.

[00:24:43] Ellen Scanlon: Of course. Well, you know, with sex, I think every sex expert would tell you you need a lot less weed than you think.

[00:24:49] Um, low dose, you know, you really want to have the, um, the relaxation benefits and the calming mind benefits. But getting [00:25:00] high, feeling high and um, and having sex is something that it’s sort of for more advanced consumers really, um, especially if you’re trying to stay present and to stay mindful and.

[00:25:12] That’s the, that was sort of the surprising advice from all of these, like very open and in my mind, like people who are like very experimental and exploratory. They were like, you just need a lot less weed than you think. So it’s not coming from a conservative kind of place that you need less. It’s just that balancing your endocannabinoid system getting high is actually a side effect.

[00:25:35] Of cannabis. And so when your endocannabinoid system is balanced, if you are high, you have a little too much of the THC. That is what’s making your mind feel high. But to get to that balanced place that is, it seems to me like a perfect place to start to get into a sexual experience that feels fun and relaxing.

[00:25:54] And you feel like yourself. It’s sort of like. Um, putting on music where you’re just like, oh, I’m [00:26:00] just, I’m in my head, I’m present, but I have a little rhythm or there’s something that feels relaxing. Like that is the way that I want cannabis to feel for people who are having sex. Um, topically cannabis is excellent for women.

[00:26:13] So, um, the endocannabinoid system, as I talked about, there are receptors for endocannabinoids. You have the most in your brain and the second most in your pelvic region for women. It’s why it’s such an effective treatment for endometriosis. And one of the most effective treatments for pain is a suppository.

[00:26:29] So it’s going directly to the source. Um, but topical cannabis lubes can be wonderful. They increase blood flow, they increase sensation. They really help with people who have pain with sex, which 70% of women have had pain with sex at some point. So, um, a cannabis lube is a wonderful thing to bring into the bedroom and won’t have any mental effects.

[00:26:51] So. Getting to the place where your endocannabinoid system. Feels balanced mentally can come with a little bit. I know you like tinctures a lot. Tinctures are [00:27:00] wonderful. Low dose edibles. These, uh, cannabis beverages that you can buy in liquor stores or grocery stores. Most of them have less than five milligrams of THC.

[00:27:09] You know, a perfect amount of THC for me is kind of like one to three milligrams. That’s where I still feel like myself, but I get a little bit of relaxation. I like to have a lot of C, B, D usually double the amount of C, b, D just so that I can feel grounded in my body. Um, and all of that is great for relaxing, it’s great for sex.

[00:27:29] It’s sort of like the, for me that is like the, the, um, the sort of perfect place to have a baseline and then I can figure out what I wanna do from there. Hmm.

[00:27:39] Tawny Lara: That’s super helpful. Especially the, the point to how. The, the topical lube can be helpful for people who are experiencing pain with sex, um, and how common that is and how it’s just not talked about.

[00:27:54] So I am really glad that you brought that up. Um, and so before we, before we end with music, I [00:28:00] did wanna also talk about how, you know, I don’t wanna just have this episode where we’re just talking about, like, weed is amazing. I know. I also wanna talk about how, you know. Everything can be addictive, everything can, anything can be abused.

[00:28:15] Um, cannabis is definitely not for everybody. Nothing is for everybody. Um, and so something that I’m, I’m wondering if you could speak to how with the legalization of cannabis, we’re also seeing like some of the strongest doses of cannabis that are not meant for, you know, the average consumer. Um, we, and, and even some that, you know, yes, medicinal, but there’s just weed is a lot stronger now than it used to be.

[00:28:48] So knowing that and being mindful of that, if you are even just curious about exploring cannabis. Um, so yeah, if you could speak to that a little bit, Ellen.

[00:28:59] Ellen Scanlon: It [00:29:00] is something that, that is, it’s very concerning for me. Um. I think that the, the challenges with cannabis being federally legal have led to a lot of business problems and states are all different in the regulations that they have.

[00:29:17] Taxation is different, and so for cannabis businesses to stay alive, a lot of them have had to kind of. Focus on the original cannabis consumer who was a high potency consumer, who was a high frequency consumer. And so if you go to a dispensary in most legal states, that is who is being catered to and low dose products are harder to find.

[00:29:42] In, uh, in legal dispensaries. That’s why these hemp derived products, which, especially coming in beverages or in edibles not being available in the dispensary, number one, are, are opening people up to a much more accessible product. It’s complicated. We don’t have to get into it, but the cannabis industry is, [00:30:00] is in a lot of, um, business.

[00:30:03] Distress right now. Um, but what has happened is there’s a bifurcation and dispensaries are where you go to get really high dose products and, you know, hemp-derived products are available in lower doses. It is so easy to feel an extreme amount of anxiety if you are smoking very high dose THC. It just is.

[00:30:25] That is, you know, I can’t like more than a 20%. Amount of THC in cannabis flour in like a, a pre-roll or like, I more than that, and I don’t like it. It, I, it makes me feel anxious. All the reasons that I don’t want to be consuming cannabis. Um, pain relief is a different thing. If you’re trying to relieve pain, you may need higher potency cannabis, but that is a specific.

[00:30:52] Um, condition that you are trying to solve for. And I think for the average person who’s like, oh, weed is legal. I wanna check it [00:31:00] out, I’ll just try this joint. Like knowing what the percentages of THC mean is super important and so many people don’t and then they’re gonna have a bad experience. There is, you know, an antidote if you will.

[00:31:12] A CBD tincture can bring you down if you are feeling too high. And so if you are considering. Trying cannabis and you’re going to a dispensary and you’re worried, I always say have a CBD oil tincture around. Put it under your tongue, hold it there for 30 seconds. You will come down, um, from the feelings of being too high.

[00:31:32] But it’s one of the reasons why I have, I. Tried to create a show that I hope will be fun and entertaining because like the secret message I’m trying to get in is you do not need these high potency products in order to feel your best. If you wanna get to a place where you like those products, as you educate yourself, as you figure out what your own kind of personal path is with cannabis, do your thing.

[00:31:56] No judgment. But if you’re starting out, those can [00:32:00] really not be fun.

[00:32:03] Tawny Lara: Yeah. Th thank you for, for clearing that up. It’s, I think it’s such an important detail. Um, and I, my, in the same way that like, you know, Lisa and I often talk about how like walking by liquor stores or walking by bars can be really triggering in early sobriety.

[00:32:19] You know, if you’re trying to avoid alcohol and you see people taking shots or you see your neighborhood liquor store and, but, and so now I could only imagine. Feeling that way, walking by a dispensary, you know, or walking by people. Like people are smoking weed all the time in New York City. Like, I can only imagine someone who’s in recovery from, you know, cannabis use disorder.

[00:32:42] Um, that’s, it’s gotta be really complex for them to deal with, to deal with this, you know, uh, that with this legalization.

[00:32:52] Ellen Scanlon: I think it is, and you know, it would be so great to have more guidance from the federal government. I, we just haven’t [00:33:00] gotten it. And so each state is kind of on their own. You know, the series that I just talked about, um, with alcohol and cannabis, I learned a lot about prohibition and the US coming out of prohibition and.

[00:33:11] Pre-prohibition, it was extremely high potency liquor and it was everywhere and people were pledging their paychecks and you know, women were being abused. And so for 13 years, you know, there was no, uh, legal alcohol. It spawned a massive illegal industry. But what ended up coming out of this was a. A structure where 3.2% beer and wine was the first thing that was legalized after prohibition.

[00:33:37] And that lasted for a few years. And it was like, all right, we gotta start slow with this. Let’s get people comfortable with what this product is. Make sure that it is safe, that you’re not going to have, you know, bathtub gin that makes you sick in some way. And then as a society, we can start to figure out how to move forward and.

[00:33:56] I’m hopeful that that is what can happen with cannabis. It’s not what’s happening right now, and [00:34:00] so it really is on the consumer to understand the difference between low dose cannabis and and higher potency cannabis.

[00:34:07] Tawny Lara: Yeah. Again, we’re saying like low dose, like. Two milligrams. Start with like one or two milligrams.

[00:34:13] There’s gummies out there that are like 50, a hundred milligrams. Do not start there at all. Do not start there.

[00:34:21] Ellen Scanlon: One or two milligrams is a great place to start. And I would say make sure that it has c, b, D in it too, because that’ll have a balancing effect on your body. And so you, you’ll really start to understand what a balanced endocannabinoid system feels like.

[00:34:36] And it feels a lot like, you know. What you feel like after you’ve gone for like a great 30 minute run? It’s subtle. It’s positive. It, it’s it, your body feels balanced. It’s not meant to be an overwhelming experience.

[00:34:51] Lisa Smith: I think it’s also, um, I. Uh, uh, it’s so important. I love everything you have said about this because I know one of the big things, you know, like [00:35:00] I am a 12 step person, and I remember coming into 12 step 20 years ago and being told that because.

[00:35:10] When I went through detox and I was hospitalized and all that, and I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder and anxiety disorder, I was put on Lexapro immediately and being told in 12 Step, not by everyone, but, but there was, but by certainly by some people that they’re, I wasn’t sober because I was taking antidepressants and that, um.

[00:35:36] You know, it wasn’t, and it was not something I shared about openly in, in shares. The fact that I was taking, and other people didn’t either. Like, there was sort of this like quiet acknowledgement that, you know, there’s still a ton of people in 12 Step that are super judgy about antidepressants, which are not something that, you know, bill W and Dr.

[00:35:58] Bob, the founders of AA [00:36:00] had back when they were, you know, that just wasn’t in play. And, and it was. There was not a diagnosis before, there was not a medication that was treated for it. And I feel like there is a lot of the same sort of going on with, um, with people incorporating cannabis into their recovery.

[00:36:18] And, you know, I can say at least from like a, you know, there’s always gonna be the hard liners in 12 step, um, that are, you know. You, you can’t possibly be sober. Um, if you are using cannabis in the ways that you’re talking about, not to get stoned, not self-medicate and, and checkout and not as like a party drug, but in these, you know, medically appropriate and, you know, really it’s, it’s another, it’s, to me, it’s like the next thing after the way antidepressants were treated is cannabis now.

[00:36:54] And I, I, I will say for anybody out there, I am quite [00:37:00] certain. That, you know, there are, that What’s going on in, uh, you, this is, I shouldn’t say quite certain, this is my speculation, is that just like I was taking antidepressants and wasn’t talking about it in 12 Step, there are people out there who are using cannabis in support of their recovery in the exact ways you’re talking about.

[00:37:19] Not, like I said, blowing out who are just not talking about it. And then if you are somebody who is in 12 step. But cannabis is a medically, um, excuse me. Um, not just necessary, but like a medically, this is a, this is a harm reduction. This is an answer for you where otherwise you’re gonna be, you know, taking Xanax or not being treated and more likely to drink and whatever.

[00:37:43] All of that don’t not go to 12 step because of that, right? You’re not a fraud, you’re not, you know, it’s not getting anything over. It’s just. Not something I think that is maybe so, you know, it’s, it’s not [00:38:00] it, it openly discussed, but it is something that, um, in the evolution of things, people talk now about being on antidepressants in 12 step all the time.

[00:38:10] It’s nothing. And you know, years from now, I think it’s gonna be same thing with cannabis. Right? Hopefully. Um, yeah. Yeah. When you listen to this conversation that you’ve just been having, it is a, if it wasn’t actually Kim, if it was some other substance that came from a pharmaceutical company, people would be like, oh fine.

[00:38:33] Yeah, I take that too. You know it, it is this stigma just because of so much stigma. Yeah. That’s my

[00:38:43] Ellen Scanlon: input and it’s. The stigma isn’t really even accurate. I mean, THC can be like a stimulating, effervescent kind of feeling laying on the couch and the half baked or whatever these [00:39:00] different, um, stereotypes are.

[00:39:04] I, I actually think that this is where women really come in because I think most of the stereotypes around weed are about men doing like couch and munchies and all that kind of stuff. And I think as more women talk about how cannabis is coming into their life in a positive way, that, you know, it’s that word of mouth.

[00:39:24] I think that, um, yeah, and I also think that the, the. Conversation around alcohol, maybe not being very good for you, separate from people who are in recovery, has opened up a space in people’s brains where they’re like, okay. I thought alcohol was totally fine. Two drinks for men, one drink for women. And if, if now maybe that is coming into question and cannabis is around and it’s legal and like terrible outcomes don’t seem to be happening, kids aren’t using it, teenage juice isn’t going up.

[00:39:58] Like, okay, [00:40:00] maybe I need to balance what I was thinking and, and my perceptions of these things. And you know, I’m in the industry and I’m sort of at the forefront of this. And so this may be something that’s happening slowly, but. I grew up on the East coast. I go back every summer and when I first got into, um, this business, you know, people kind of looked at me with wide eyes.

[00:40:17] I started my career on Wall Street. I have an MBA. They were like, what are you doing? And slowly but surely, you know, as legalization happens, it takes a couple of years and then people start to realize that, oh, maybe this isn’t this terrible thing. And oh, is it that different than alcohol? You know? And, and, and so I think that it’s just these.

[00:40:39] These small shifts that are happening, it’s happening much more quickly with younger people. Um, and a lot of younger people are making choices based on how they wanna feel, not just kind of like, here’s what’s in front of me, I’m just gonna have as much of it as I can. So it’s, it’s a fascinating time to be looking at all of these things.

[00:40:58] And at the same time, for [00:41:00] cannabis specifically, having so little progress at the federal level is just making this industry. Not function very well, and it’s kind of going down to, um, it’s taking a path that I hope it will reconsider on the high potency. And, and that’s just, it’s just not the way that this industry is going to bring the benefits that the plant can bring to, um, to the people that I hope that, that it can help.

[00:41:28] Tawny Lara: Absolutely. Um, so Ellen, you are on Recovery Rocks, so that means we talked about the recovery, gotta talk about some music. What are you jamming out to right now? Are there any songs, any, anything you wanna talk about? Any I. Any cannabis music, I don’t know. Whatever, you know? Yeah. It’s funny.

[00:41:48] Ellen Scanlon: I don’t listen to a lot of cannabis music.

[00:41:51] Um, I, I love Beyonce. Beyonce is my, just like, listening to her is like going to church for me. I just, I [00:42:00] love her music. I think she’s an incredible artist. Her creativity, she’s a mom. She’s like a gorgeous. Queen of the world. Um, so listening to her is very soul affirming for me. Um, I love jazz. I like Spotify has a bunch of playlists of West Coast Jazz, so you get to hear a lot of different artists.

[00:42:20] Um, the West Coast jazz is just, um, I. I don’t know if this is true, but I, I, I, I lived in New York for a long time. I love sort of the New York jazz artist, but the West Coast just seems a little Boer, a little brighter sometimes. Um, I went to my first concert in a while. Uh, I went to see Sophie Tucker. I. It was so much fun.

[00:42:42] You know, I, uh, when I lived in New York, I used to like to go out dancing a lot and when I’ve been on trips to Europe, and so I just felt like I was like in a bisa, just like dancing my face off. And so that was super, super fun. Um, yeah, so I think that’s kind of what I listen to the most. I, when I’m in my house, [00:43:00] I listen to a lot of classical music.

[00:43:01] Um, I like classical radio from all across. The country. I listen to the New York Classical Radio, Washington, DC where my parents live and uh, San Francisco. So I like to hear the radio and hear the people who are kind of picking for me.

[00:43:16] Tawny Lara: Yes. The, the original al the original algorithm. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I love it.

[00:43:24] Ellen, thank you so much for hanging out with, with us today. I learned I keep learning so much from you and I hope our listeners get a lot from this as well. This is, um, really special episode for me. So thank you for, for hanging out with us. Yeah. I, I love

[00:43:39] Lisa Smith: this. This was so great. Thank you, Alan, so much.

[00:43:42] Ellen Scanlon: Oh, I’m so happy to be here and I’m so happy that, um, that you have learned and it’s been helpful for you.

[00:43:48] That is truly my goal with every episode, I just want people to feel more confident and, uh, and more ready to make whatever decision works best for you.

[00:43:57] Tawny Lara: Absolutely. Ellen, where can [00:44:00] people find you?

[00:44:02] Ellen Scanlon: How to Do The Pot is available on all the podcast platforms. Uh, I write a substack, uh, also, uh, how To Do The Pot, or Ellen Scanlan.

[00:44:10] You can look under both of those. And we’re on socials at Do the Pot.

[00:44:15] Tawny Lara: Amazing. And we’re gonna have links to all of that in the show notes. Um, thank you so much and, uh, listeners, thank you. And, you know, try to, if this brought up some uncomfortable stuff like it, it possibly can, you know, talk to your doctor, talk to your therapist.

[00:44:30] Um. Times are changing, you know, and it’s, uh, it’s, I think these kinds of conversations are important and I’m really glad we got to have one today. Um, so thank you guys for listening and have a good weekend.

[00:44:43] Lisa Smith: Thanks for listening. We hope you like what you heard. If so, please hit subscribe and consider rating and reviewing us so others can find us.

[00:44:52] Tawny, how can our listeners find you?

[00:44:55] Tawny Lara: You can find me at Tawny m Laura [00:45:00] on all of the social medias, and you can find my blog, RIA Tea Party sobriety, TEA party.com. Lisa, how can we find you and your amazing book?

[00:45:13] Lisa Smith: My book is Girl Walks Out of a Bar. And it is available bookstores everywhere and online. And you can find me at Lisa Smith Advisory with an o.com, and I’m on social media at Girl Walks Out.

[00:45:28] Thanks for listening.